Transcript Of Interview___________

TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW
OF THE INDONESIAN FOREIGN MINISTER H.E. DR HASAN WIRAJUDA
AND MS JENNY BROCKIE OF SBS TV 'INSIGHT' PROGRAM
Recorded at
THE INDONESIAN EMBASSY, 21 AUGUST 2003

SBS: Dr Wirajuda, thank you very much for your time. You met with the Prime Minister and senior Government Ministers today. What was discussed at those meetings and did anything specific come out of them?
Minister: Of course, we discussed quite a wide range of issues about our relations. More specific, of course, is on counter-terrorism- this is the issue of importance to not only - between Indonesia and Australia but for the region and in fact internationally, so we discussed on the possibility of Indonesia and Australia co-sponsoring a regional conference on counter-terrorism. We have had in the region multiple arrangements, bilateral arrangements, regional and of course also cross-regional arrangements on counter-terrorism, but I think it is timely now for us to go deeper to strengthen the existing cooperation among the countries of the region in particular on counter-terrorism. Where Indonesia and Australia has a very good example, not only do we have arrangements for bilateral cooperation but at the same time we have proven that the bilateral cooperation on counter-terrorism has been working very well and I think we can share our experience with others.

SBS: I wonder if you agree with one of your police chiefs assessments this week, Major General Pastika, who said that the strategy of Jemaah Islamiah is to make Singapore and Malaysia their economic base, to make The Philippines their training area, and to make Indonesia their operations, or jihad, area. Is that the way you see it?

Minister: Well, certainly each country has their own importance to break their networks, you know. And I would say the arrest of Hambali is important again on our side, meaning to break the connection between national, regional as well as international network of terrorisms, because Hambali has been playing as a man in between of those multi-layer networks. Of course, then by breaking the connections, networks, that they have, we'll deal with the situations at our own boundaries. By this we will weaken the terrorists' activities and I think it would be much easier for us to deal in Indonesia, within Indonesian boundaries, Philippines, likewise also Singapore and Malaysia.

SBS: Clearly the Indonesian police have been quite successful in tracking down terrorists after these attacks have occurred. How do you think your intelligence services have performed in anticipating attacks?

Minister: Of course, it is a joint operation in accordance with our laws on counter-terrorism because the intelligence body had to provide information to our police because the intelligence body had no power to arrest, for example so it is the police who arrest. Of course, the police had its own detective works and this, in combination, really made the efforts to combat terrorism at home quite successful.

SBS: But do you think the intelligence services have been as effective as the police in Indonesia?

Minister: Well, you know that the intelligence body is practically newly established body and they are still in the process of improving their capacity, while the police has much wider networks, down to the village level or sub-district levels. They are able to reach out better. But I would say that in terms of building of international network, the intelligence is doing quite fine and for that matter I would say that close cooperation among agencies, the intelligence and the police lead to the success.

SBS: Clearly there is a debate under way in Indonesia at the moment between those who are pushing for tighter security laws and a greater role for the military in dealing with terrorism and those who say there is just a need for better coordination of the agencies and improved performance, in fact. Where do you sit in that debate? What do you think?

Minister: As you said, I am more for better coordination, for better implementation of the existing laws and regulations rather than to promulgate new law, that would be that kind of law that our neighbours have, like Singapore and Malaysia - have the internal security law, security acts, which I don't think would be politically saleable in Indonesia today.

SBS: Counter to democracy, in fact?

Minister: In a way, yes

SBS: So you would not like to see Indonesia go down that path? You would like to see things stay as they are?

Minister: In fact the Coordinating Minister of Political and Security has said it very clearly that we put this debate in the closet.

SBS: Put the debate in the closet, put it away?

Minister: Yes, put it away.

SBS: What about the idea of the Indonesian military having more power in relation to terrorism? How do you feel about that?

Minister: Well, certainly the military in the past, under the previous governments, was the institution that developed effective counter-terrorism units as well as the intelligence units and dealing with counter terrorism, but in the era of democracy and, in fact, according to law on counter-terrorism, it is the police who have been given the authority to deal with terrorism. The military can play a role to support the police operations but not to be first.

SBS: Why do you think all these young Indonesian men want to become terrorists and kill both Westerners and Indonesians? Why do you think that is happening?

Minister: Well, first, perhaps we should not make generalisations. There are, yes, groups of young men who commit themselves to terrorist acts but the large majority of Indonesians, including Indonesian young men, certainly condemns these terrorist activities. Those who are involved, I believe in terms of the ideological orientations, they are by ideology, are they who champion the Islamic state concepts and they also championing the application of the Islamic sharia which is not at all a new issue. And we had through our history, groups in our society who even used violent means to champion these true concepts. But throughout our history, too, we have proven that they did not enjoy wide support from our society. So, that's why in that context, if we are willing to see, I mean to look back, the idea, the basic ideological orientations do not enjoy support and mostly in a democratic settings. Look at the decisions made last year when smaller parties of Islamic orientation submitted a proposal for the application of Sharia, did not enjoy support from others and, as a consequence, they quietly withdrew their proposal. So this is, I think, in a way, by saying this, I would say that the ideological grounds are not there, at least to say, very small ground.

SBS: Our Federal Police Commissioner of course has expressed his concern about some Islamic schools in Indonesia and the fact that they spread propaganda, and there have been links between terrorists and some of these schools. Are you worried about that, about those schools?

Minister: Of course, we have to have a close watch on schools who have some connections in terms of perhaps some of their alumni got involved themselves in the act of terrorism. But I think at the same time we should be careful not to say that the schools were involved. For that matter, we punish those with involvement, not to punish the school which they themselves had said it openly that they reject violence and for that matter do not share terrorism. So, in other words, we have to balance here. Yes, there is a need to serve our security but at the same time also the legal approach, meaning that we cannot make simply generalisations.

SBS: It's been reported today that Indonesian police are on their way to question Hambali. What can you tell as about that?

Minister: Well, certainly we have strong interests and we claim our jurisdiction to Hambali. He was and he is still No. 1 on our 'wanted list' and he was allegedly involved in cases of bombings, even as early as year 2000, before the Bali bombing. And he is the missing link when we talk about who is behind the Bali bombing, who is behind the persecutions or in connection with the case of Abu Bakar Bashir. So we are very eager, we demand that we be given early access, immediate access to Hambali.

SBS: And are you being given that access?

Minister: I think my understanding is that the United States is willing to facilitate our interest.

SBS: And are police in fact questioning him now or on their way to question him, the Indonesian police?

Minister: Indonesian police are preparing a team and, of course, they are waiting for a clear signal from the United States when they are allowed to question Hambali.

SBS: Is there any indication yet on when that will be?

Minister: Not yet, but I believe it is in process.

SBS: Do you think he will ultimately be released into Indonesian custody to stand trial in Indonesia?

Minister: We understand that the US has strong interests as well because of the alleged involvement of Hambali in connection with the 11 September attack but also connections of Jemaah Islamiah and al-Qaeda. We understand that. But it is important here that those overlapping interests be served and after all we are talking about collective interests to fight terrorism. So in that context, we should not antagonise one interest of claims of jurisdiction against another. But we are aiming at the same directions.

SBS: Given that Australia has recently resumed its military ties with Kopassus, I wonder, as a representative of the Indonesian Government, what guarantee you can give the Australian people that Kopassus won't engage in the kind of human rights abuses that it has in the past?

Minister: Well I think you should see the Indonesian military in the new context of Indonesia. I know often references in the past were made, in connection with East Timor and other cases of human rights abuse, but here you are dealing with new Indonesia, democratic Indonesia and like any democracies, we do have also internal control mechanisms. And for that matter, under new environment of democracy and reform, the military, too, they have their strong interest that they will not repeat the kind of abuses that they had in the past. They want to present - even to their own people - a new image of our military, an image that we have professional, military professionals. So for that matter we welcome any offer for cooperation but at the same time I think it should be seen in the context of new Indonesia in which the military is a part of the important components. I think in that understanding, cooperation or assistance can be extended to our military, including Kopassus.

SBS: How has Indonesia viewed Australia's intervention in the Solomon Islands? Do you think it is an appropriate role for Australia in the region to intervene like that?

Minister: Well, first of all, the intervention of Australia and others was based on the requests or consents of the Solomons Islands government. That's important. Two, that the intentions by sending police teams involving Australia, New Zealand, Papua New Guinea and Fiji have restored peace and order in the country. In other words, it is working positively. So, we congratulate Australia and the Pacific Islands Forum for these actions.

SBS: Just one quick, last, question. I don't know if you have been following the situation with Pauline Hanson, the Australian politician, political figure who has been jailed for fraud in the last day or so. How would Indonesia have responded to that given the comments that she has made over so many years about Asian countries?

Minister: My understanding is that she was convicted for reasons perhaps not directly linked to her policy orientations on immigration, but I believe - and I myself am very much against that kind of 'phobia' that she develops against foreigners - and the prosecution, even though on different reason, perhaps would weaken her political platform and that would be welcomed, though basically on her prosecution itself, it is more a domestic matter of Australia which I don't necessarily want to comment on.

SBS: But you are pleased to see her out of the political process?

Minister: In dealing with her policy orientations, which are more or less xenophobia.

SBS: Dr Wirajuda, thank you very much for joining "Insight" today.

Minister: Thank you. Thank you very much indeed.

Embassy of the Republic of Indonesia, Canberra - Australia


TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW OF THE INDONESIAN FOREIGN MINISTER H.E. DR HASAN WIRAJUDA AND MS JENNY BROCKIE OF SBS TV 'INSIGHT' PROGRAM Recorded at THE INDONESIAN EMBASSY, 21 AUGUST 2003

SBS: Dr Wirajuda, thank you very much for your time. You met with the Prime Minister and senior Government Ministers today. What was discussed at those meetings and did anything specific come out of them? Minister: Of course, we discussed quite a wide range of issues about our relations. More specific, of course, is on counter-terrorism- this is the issue of importance to not only - between Indonesia and Australia but for the region and in fact internationally, so we discussed on the possibility of Indonesia and Australia co-sponsoring a regional conference on counter-terrorism. We have had in the region multiple arrangements, bilateral arrangements, regional and of course also cross-regional arrangements on counter-terrorism, but I think it is timely now for us to go deeper to strengthen the existing cooperation among the countries of the region in particular on counter-terrorism. Where Indonesia and Australia has a very good example, not only do we have arrangements for bilateral cooperation but at the same time we have proven that the bilateral cooperation on counter-terrorism has been working very well and I think we can share our experience with others. SBS: I wonder if you agree with one of your police chiefs assessments this week, Major General Pastika, who said that the strategy of Jemaah Islamiah is to make Singapore and Malaysia their economic base, to make The Philippines their training area, and to make Indonesia their operations, or jihad, area. Is that the way you see it? Minister: Well, certainly each country has their own importance to break their networks, you know. And I would say the arrest of Hambali is important again on our side, meaning to break the connection between national, regional as well as international network of terrorisms, because Hambali has been playing as a man in between of those multi-layer networks. Of course, then by breaking the connections, networks, that they have, we'll deal with the situations at our own boundaries. By this we will weaken the terrorists' activities and I think it would be much easier for us to deal in Indonesia, within Indonesian boundaries, Philippines, likewise also Singapore and Malaysia. SBS: Clearly the Indonesian police have been quite successful in tracking down terrorists after these attacks have occurred. How do you think your intelligence services have performed in anticipating attacks? Minister: Of course, it is a joint operation in accordance with our laws on counter-terrorism because the intelligence body had to provide information to our police because the intelligence body had no power to arrest, for example so it is the police who arrest. Of course, the police had its own detective works and this, in combination, really made the efforts to combat terrorism at home quite successful. SBS: But do you think the intelligence services have been as effective as the police in Indonesia? Minister: Well, you know that the intelligence body is practically newly established body and they are still in the process of improving their capacity, while the police has much wider networks, down to the village level or sub-district levels. They are able to reach out better. But I would say that in terms of building of international network, the intelligence is doing quite fine and for that matter I would say that close cooperation among agencies, the intelligence and the police lead to the success. SBS: Clearly there is a debate under way in Indonesia at the moment between those who are pushing for tighter security laws and a greater role for the military in dealing with terrorism and those who say there is just a need for better coordination of the agencies and improved performance, in fact. Where do you sit in that debate? What do you think? Minister: As you said, I am more for better coordination, for better implementation of the existing laws and regulations rather than to promulgate new law, that would be that kind of law that our neighbours have, like Singapore and Malaysia - have the internal security law, security acts, which I don't think would be politically saleable in Indonesia today. SBS: Counter to democracy, in fact? Minister: In a way, yes SBS: So you would not like to see Indonesia go down that path? You would like to see things stay as they are? Minister: In fact the Coordinating Minister of Political and Security has said it very clearly that we put this debate in the closet. SBS: Put the debate in the closet, put it away? Minister: Yes, put it away. SBS: What about the idea of the Indonesian military having more power in relation to terrorism? How do you feel about that? Minister: Well, certainly the military in the past, under the previous governments, was the institution that developed effective counter-terrorism units as well as the intelligence units and dealing with counter terrorism, but in the era of democracy and, in fact, according to law on counter-terrorism, it is the police who have been given the authority to deal with terrorism. The military can play a role to support the police operations but not to be first. SBS: Why do you think all these young Indonesian men want to become terrorists and kill both Westerners and Indonesians? Why do you think that is happening? Minister: Well, first, perhaps we should not make generalisations. There are, yes, groups of young men who commit themselves to terrorist acts but the large majority of Indonesians, including Indonesian young men, certainly condemns these terrorist activities. Those who are involved, I believe in terms of the ideological orientations, they are by ideology, are they who champion the Islamic state concepts and they also championing the application of the Islamic sharia which is not at all a new issue. And we had through our history, groups in our society who even used violent means to champion these true concepts. But throughout our history, too, we have proven that they did not enjoy wide support from our society. So, that's why in that context, if we are willing to see, I mean to look back, the idea, the basic ideological orientations do not enjoy support and mostly in a democratic settings. Look at the decisions made last year when smaller parties of Islamic orientation submitted a proposal for the application of Sharia, did not enjoy support from others and, as a consequence, they quietly withdrew their proposal. So this is, I think, in a way, by saying this, I would say that the ideological grounds are not there, at least to say, very small ground. SBS: Our Federal Police Commissioner of course has expressed his concern about some Islamic schools in Indonesia and the fact that they spread propaganda, and there have been links between terrorists and some of these schools. Are you worried about that, about those schools? Minister: Of course, we have to have a close watch on schools who have some connections in terms of perhaps some of their alumni got involved themselves in the act of terrorism. But I think at the same time we should be careful not to say that the schools were involved. For that matter, we punish those with involvement, not to punish the school which they themselves had said it openly that they reject violence and for that matter do not share terrorism. So, in other words, we have to balance here. Yes, there is a need to serve our security but at the same time also the legal approach, meaning that we cannot make simply generalisations. SBS: It's been reported today that Indonesian police are on their way to question Hambali. What can you tell as about that? Minister: Well, certainly we have strong interests and we claim our jurisdiction to Hambali. He was and he is still No. 1 on our 'wanted list' and he was allegedly involved in cases of bombings, even as early as year 2000, before the Bali bombing. And he is the missing link when we talk about who is behind the Bali bombing, who is behind the persecutions or in connection with the case of Abu Bakar Bashir. So we are very eager, we demand that we be given early access, immediate access to Hambali. SBS: And are you being given that access? Minister: I think my understanding is that the United States is willing to facilitate our interest. SBS: And are police in fact questioning him now or on their way to question him, the Indonesian police? Minister: Indonesian police are preparing a team and, of course, they are waiting for a clear signal from the United States when they are allowed to question Hambali. SBS: Is there any indication yet on when that will be? Minister: Not yet, but I believe it is in process. SBS: Do you think he will ultimately be released into Indonesian custody to stand trial in Indonesia? Minister: We understand that the US has strong interests as well because of the alleged involvement of Hambali in connection with the 11 September attack but also connections of Jemaah Islamiah and al-Qaeda. We understand that. But it is important here that those overlapping interests be served and after all we are talking about collective interests to fight terrorism. So in that context, we should not antagonise one interest of claims of jurisdiction against another. But we are aiming at the same directions. SBS: Given that Australia has recently resumed its military ties with Kopassus, I wonder, as a representative of the Indonesian Government, what guarantee you can give the Australian people that Kopassus won't engage in the kind of human rights abuses that it has in the past? Minister: Well I think you should see the Indonesian military in the new context of Indonesia. I know often references in the past were made, in connection with East Timor and other cases of human rights abuse, but here you are dealing with new Indonesia, democratic Indonesia and like any democracies, we do have also internal control mechanisms. And for that matter, under new environment of democracy and reform, the military, too, they have their strong interest that they will not repeat the kind of abuses that they had in the past. They want to present - even to their own people - a new image of our military, an image that we have professional, military professionals. So for that matter we welcome any offer for cooperation but at the same time I think it should be seen in the context of new Indonesia in which the military is a part of the important components. I think in that understanding, cooperation or assistance can be extended to our military, including Kopassus. SBS: How has Indonesia viewed Australia's intervention in the Solomon Islands? Do you think it is an appropriate role for Australia in the region to intervene like that? Minister: Well, first of all, the intervention of Australia and others was based on the requests or consents of the Solomons Islands government. That's important. Two, that the intentions by sending police teams involving Australia, New Zealand, Papua New Guinea and Fiji have restored peace and order in the country. In other words, it is working positively. So, we congratulate Australia and the Pacific Islands Forum for these actions. SBS: Just one quick, last, question. I don't know if you have been following the situation with Pauline Hanson, the Australian politician, political figure who has been jailed for fraud in the last day or so. How would Indonesia have responded to that given the comments that she has made over so many years about Asian countries? Minister: My understanding is that she was convicted for reasons perhaps not directly linked to her policy orientations on immigration, but I believe - and I myself am very much against that kind of 'phobia' that she develops against foreigners - and the prosecution, even though on different reason, perhaps would weaken her political platform and that would be welcomed, though basically on her prosecution itself, it is more a domestic matter of Australia which I don't necessarily want to comment on. SBS: But you are pleased to see her out of the political process? Minister: In dealing with her policy orientations, which are more or less xenophobia. SBS: Dr Wirajuda, thank you very much for joining "Insight" today. Minister: Thank you. Thank you very much indeed.