Unofficial Transcript Of

The Interview Of
The Ambassador Of The Republic Of
Indonesia To Australia
HE Mr S. Wiryono
With Australian Journalists
At The Indonesian Embassy
10 April 1996

 

Opening Statement by Ambassador Wiryono:

Well, about a month after my arrival, because I arrived on 11th of March and presented my credentials on 20th. And I have travelled visit to Melbourne to launch the Joint Australia-Indonesia Stamps. I went to Brisbane but basically to open the Indonesian Student Association Conference. But I met with the Minister for Economic, Development, Trade and Investment and also had an interview with the Courier Mail. I was actually scheduled to speak at the Foreign Correspondence Association in Sydney tomorrow, but then Minister Downer is going to have this press conference on the Ilth so it seems they have some difficulties in having a back to back arrange; so mine would be or has to be postponed. But I think today I am available to do any questions. All I can say is that I am here to be as constructive as I can to strengthen the relations between Indonesia and Australia. The two countries have actually established a strong foundations. Many bridges, political- be that in the form of the political dialogue, political security dialogue, be that in the economic relations, aid as well as investment and trade. Be that in the human resources development because thousands of students now come to Australia: our figures shows that last year ten thousand students studying in Australia. You see, we found that sending our students to Australia we found it is closer, cheaper and also comparative quality to when we sent to the United States or Europe. And there is another factor because the parents of the students they like to visit their children. So whether from the point of view of quality or from the point of view geographical closeness as well as the cost, Australia is becoming more and more important and more and more attractive for our students and their family. I think we also have signed the Security Agreement and that shows the confidence between the two countries on the increase. I think the spots that we had over the Mantiri is over now and we now have to simply work as hard as I can to just go on the positive side.
May be with that kind of opening statement can I now have questions.

Questions and Answers

Q: Ambassador, Rebecca Lang from "Herald Sun" newspaper. Recently you had discussions with Minister Downer when you took up your appointment. I am just wondering if you can expand what you spoke about; and I also understand that he made representation just to what exactly Australians thought about the East Timor issue. Do you agree with the way Australia feels about East Timor?
A: Well, I think there is no one view over east Timor. The Government's view is very clear they recognise de facto and de jure and we are pleased with that. So the question of sovereignty I think is shadow. There is, of course, concern in Australia with regard to what is going on in East Timor sometimes and Indonesia doesn't mind I think,. expression of concern. What we do mind is the way the expression is stated. Like people who, let's say, put themselves on a high pedestal, and then pontificating or lecturing. 7hat is the kind of a way that we don't like. You express concern when it is called for. It is only natural. We ourselves are not too happy when something bad is happening in our country. But if people speak as if there are some kind of lily-white angels and addressing us as if we don't know anything about human rights and so on, 1 think that is simply not fair.

Q: Do you think that it was the case with the General Mantiri's appointment?
A : Not entirely, but we heard something like that from some sectors. I said not just one Australian's view: there are many kind of Australian views. I found a lot o good will here in Australia. I also found some, how do you call that, negative views. That is only natural, you are eighteen million people and there is always some different views and express.

Q: Coalition is thought very strongly about human rights in East Timor and some would argue that they have been lecturing to the Indonesians some [not clear] of issues. Do you think that there are some elements that has or would happen in the bilateral relations?
A: I don't want to anticipate negative kind of, I would rather stress that I would like to be open, and I would like to explain things and to have exchange of views that would be fruitful and useful and strengthening the relations between the two countries.

Q: Mr Downer here sometime ago gave a speech which said that human rights records in East Timor is a parlous? one and he agreed that there was a great abuses of human rights. Do you think that he was overstating the case a year ago and can you actually come to what you discussed in your meeting with Mr Downer?
A: Yes, let me on my discussion with Mr Downer I think East Timor of course come up. And what? The cheese of the conversation was that we have to discuss it in an open manner. Because it is a problem. But I was also saying that those who are fanning up emotions they too have blood in their hands they have to be careful about fanning up the emotions here and anything of all kind of finger-pointing statements. We are not having a perfect situation but this is not because we do not want to a perfect situation. We, as you know the Indonesian never touch East Timor for decades prior to 1975 but the place was abandoned in August 1975. But as late as November 1975 I think Foreign Minister Adam Malik still went to Rome to meet his counterpart the Portuguese Foreign Minister and we actually proposed their return and with the support of Indonesia, Australia, and Malaysian troops to restore order on so on. But when we are reported here in Australia many times, it is simply said that Indonesia annexed East Timor in 1975. But that is not the fact. The fact is that the place was abandoned and for many months we have to take care of thousands of refugees who cross the border to West Timor. And all that. I mean 1 don't mind having a position against Indonesia that's they are entitled to do that but be clear about the facts.

Q: May I ask you about something in the newspaper. In Brisbane on Monday there were two papers of Indonesian post graduate students of the ANU where basically pointing out that Australian community is very concern of human rights and they are not simply recognised by previous diplomats and it looks that they are hoping that there could be some changes.
A: I think there was a debate after that. 1 don't know it was unfortunate that it was not covered only a synopsis a short kind of description of what is written in the synopsis. Well, it is a partial report what is important there was discussion and I think a lot of students were expressing disagreement to what is stated in the paper. and that again I was also given the opportunity to explain and I said that because the paper basically says there has been an international to the integration of East Timor to Indonesia But the fact is the last voting was very close it was 50 who agreeing on the resolution and 48 who opposed and that Indonesia was mounting its supports from 30 or so the previous year to 48 the other side was declining from over 60 to 50. And it was at that point that I think Portugal asked the Secretary General if he would be willing to kind of give auspices to a dialogue between Indonesia. It has been going on since then to now but this has never been quite explained by the press or reported. And 1 must also say that we have been flexible in our negotiation in pour discussion in our dialogue. There was a time in 1987 when we almost have an agreement I think in fact Indonesia has already accepted it and also in 1991 we agreed but it was renicked? by the other side.

Q: Until that day actually the reception of Australian community is fine. But when they come to the East Timor there is sanctuary movement for East Timorese nationals asking not to be forced to Portugal. [not clear]
A: Well but those are reported very widely I read them. But those who have chosen to be Australian citizens or permanent residents and so on they have enjoyed Australian hospitality and generosity, and I think they simply have to enjoy that. The majority of people in east Timor were for integration. That is my view.

Q: What is your comment regarding the intention of Minister Downer to visit Jakarta on 15-18 April 1996.
A: We appreciate it very much and I think we consider it as signal that Australia is putting Indonesia on a very important place in the relations between the two countries and 1 think we are very pleased with that. We are looking forward and we are trying to have a constructive dialogue and as I said Mr Downer himself will build on what is already been in place. And there are a lots already in place all over,. in political, security, trade, investment, cultural, tourism, students, and all that. So please look at the more positive aspects which is the main Picture of the Indonesia-Australia relations. Rather than on the single issue.

Q: Ambassador, If I can touch you on the trade issue. The Australian Government said that they want to sell uranium to Indonesia. What is the reaction in Indonesia and are there any immediate plans to come up with the nuclear power station?
A: I think we need to discuss this thing with the sufficient degree of understanding of the objective situation. Indonesia is the developing country that needs more and more energy and we have not decided definitely but we are considering that we are going to have also other sources of energy, including nuclear, and I think it is a reasonable choice. As with regard to the source of uranium we can buy anywhere and everywhere. If Australia is willing to sell we are willing to buy and if you don't want to sell. we will buy somewhere else. And 1 think it is as simple as that. The debate in Australia, I followed them, but that is for the Australian people to decide.

Q: What about the areas of the first reactor. I understand that Java is geologically unstable area?
A: But I don't know whether you can really say geologically unstable, we are I think that not crazy as to put the nuclear plant in a geologically unstable place. We are in consultation with the International Atomic Energy Agency we are consulting with expert and I think if it unstable we are not going to place it there but I think we have done also enough research to do that. We are not just deciding it to place there we know our country and 1 think those who say something that is negative on the geographical location must also understand the Indonesian Government is not just playing tricks. Or we are ver,; serious it is our people. We are concerned about the people. Do you think we would be that crazy as to place nuclear plant in the dangerous place 9 I don't think we are that stupid.

Q: Ambassador, one of your own analyst, Professor Subroto, has said that Indonesian does not need nuclear power that you can get by on hydrocarbon energy.
A: There is still a continuing debate, you know, in environment affairs alone there is more than 400 NGO-s in Indonesia and a few expressed and that shows that we are listening to everybody and the Government is not unconcerned with this views. Are we unwilling to listen? We are listening all the time. But then we have to decide at some point. ^en you don't have any other source what can you do?

Q: Will be any special treatment from Australia or will you get specially on the uranium or any treatment on that?
A: I wouldn't like speculate whether you will get special deal or not. 1 think business deal is pure business deal You know, they are negotiated and they are arrived at sensibly I supposed there a lot bargaining and everything but I don't know I would not speculate on the hypothetical offer.

Q: Mr Hayden says that he is suspicious of Indonesia's intention in regard with our generation. Is he misreading the situation?
A : I know Mr Hayden is a former Governor General and former Foreign Minister and I think his view is important but I do not think that kind of statement is helpful Because we are doing it openly and we are working with the International Atomic Energy, we are in consultation with Governments to supper,. the reactor. And you know that the selling reactor is done not like selling shirt of a car. A lot of safeguards and safeguards to be respected and to be reported to the International Atomic Energy, and we are Following all that.

Q: Do you think there is a danger of creating a nuclear technology competition within the Asian region though without any country actually going so far as to develop weapons considering they have the technology to develop weapons. This is something Mr Hayden or Australia is concerned.
A: We have signed the NPT Agreement and we striving to CTBT Agreement Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty and my Foreign Minister even chairing the Conferences you see. So I think our position is clear. Why should we be questioned about that?

Q: I think there is a danger of short of regional competition in Asian region.
A: You know how many nuclear power there are in the world. They are the one who are doing to be considered as the source of danger. We, the non-nuclear power, have signed the agreement of the NPT how could we be considered as a source of danger?

Q: I am not saying that you are considered as source of danger. 1 am just saying it could create a degree of competition in the region.
A: In terms of producing peaceful nuclear energy?

Q: In terms of developing of nuclear technology.
A: Nuclear technology for peaceful uses or for military uses?

Q: Nuclear technology for [unclear]
A: Because if there is a strict rules under the International Atomic Energy Agency and isle are member of it. We have signed the NPT and regionallv within the ASEAN we are striving for the nuclear weapon free zone. And so.. we must not be suspected of creating only danger but danger is I think those who already have the nuclear power. the nuclear technology. We are just trying to obtain the technology, of nuclear for peaceful uses.

Q: To what stage Australia may contribute in the nuclear technology?
A: Well. Minister Habibie was here and I think he said that California or Europe is only four hours away actually and that in the past we have the kind of a blind spot over this place. And he is, I think, considering Australia as a source of technology that would be. But I don't know of it specifically on nuclear technology but there are other countries. If you have the appropriate one., we would be happy to consider it.

Q: Mr Ambassador, there are some speculation that Mr Howard's first overseas visit will be to Indonesia. hat will cap association of Australian leadership visits to Jakarta. During your tenure here do you expect that President Soeharto comes to Australia?
A: I would be most happy if that could happen but then of course this is not a decision for me. Well, heads of states or heads governments always make visits but it has to be prepared well and to be seen in the light of the need of the countries. And I think that is one possibility.

Q: Relationship of governments is considered one sided. Australian visits are more to Jakarta.
A: Well may be, at the head of government level. But a] the ministerial level,, I think we have been sending ministers. And in June 1996, two ministers will be coming here and just last month we have a minister in Sydney, you see. So I think it is rather misleading to see it unbalanced. Over all I think it is quite balanced but I admit flat jay President hasn't been here for quite some time.

Q: What is his reluctance to come to Australia?
A: There is no reluctance. It is just that it is not being made, you see. And I think we know...there is no reluctance. 1 think the President is not reluctant to come here. It is just that the Presidential visit should be well prepared.

Q: What do you think about the different culture between Australia and Indonesia?
A: Well, I think we have very different culture. Australians are direct and open and sometimes confrontational in our perceptions. Indonesians, they like to kind of wait a while, you know, before reacting. And 1 think we are different. But we are slicked to each other. I think it was Mr David Jenkins interviewed me in Paris that I said that if you live in a city, and you don't like your neighbourhood you would move somewhere else. But as nations, I think, we are going to be permanently together. Unless there is some earthquake that displace our countries. But you know, I like to know Australians better and 1 think Australians would also like to know Indonesians. I was in Brisbane and there was a girl, her name is Oregon Melanie siapa namanya?
Hatumena: Melanie, Meddeline.
A: Meddeline.She was Australian but she has lived in Indonesia for two years and I was amazed when I saw her because she was speaking like a Javanese. And I have a few students here. an Australian University, was talking in front of me. And one of my colleagues says this guy has been Australianised. Hah-hah. Because he was crossing legs it was like Australians. I think it is all right. I don't mind. Rather than stressing on differences, I think we must really try to know each other. I wrote a letter to Dick Woolcott after my visit in 1991 that we need to be able to talk cross culturally. it means that I t?-v to understand you and you by to understand me. If you simply bsay, "well, or we sav this is the Pancasila democracy, and you say this is the Australian democracy, then we will not understand each other. I think I like Australians, you are quite open. And I think you also like Indonesians. Thousands of people go to Bali, to Java, to all over Indonesia 230 thousands of them; there must be some cultural attractions.

Q: What will you be doing personally to close the cultural gap between our two peoples?
A: Well, talking to you is one way. And talking everywhere, meeting people. I went to Bond University there. and I met with the Chancellor. He said that Bond-.University is trying to have a kind of teaching system that not only telling the students but also listening. And I found that very attractive, because we should listen to each other, try to understand each other, and be willing to see that eventhough we are different we are not against each other. Simply saying that "I don't like something is all right, when you start using that like the East Timor issue or damaging or destroying the good relations, I think that is not constructive.

Q: Do you think that Australians appreciate Asian countries' sensitivities and how they work? Do you think that Asians will be ever understanding Australia?
A: It is a problem to resolved. I mean naturally we are different because we come from different culture. Our root is different. But the fact that we are sending more and more students here and my Cultural Attache said that according to the projection we could have hundred thousand Indonesian students here by the year 2000. That means that we are in touch with each other and culturally we must to try to learn each other.

Q: At the government to government level, Mr Keating has quite affor..... with President Soeharto. Do you think is it inevitable with initially the certain loss of intimacy in the relationship that have been valuable in relations to activities within APEC etc.
A: I don It think it is a matter of loss intimacy. Mr Hovvard is new here. And 1 think he has a plan to visit Indonesia, the two leaders would meet each other and know each other better. But there is a goodwill already there. 1Ve must not look only at what has been in the past, but we must also look forward to what will be important. The past is the past, we cannot say that. But Mr Howard has said that he will be positive and has proven by the meeting with MrMahathir. I think. It is clear. His intention is positive, and we too are going to respond positively.

Q: Previous government gets some troubles with the election of the Coalition Government which is the relationship of Australia and the leaders of the region countries.
A: You see, I have read something a long that line. But 1 think the campaign rhetoric is different then the policy making. Once you in power you would be doing things like that. Campaign rhetoric is done for the shake of, well, campaigning. Get involved with them. Getting people excited and so on. And I don't like to see only the speeches during the campaign. I like to see the statement, the policy statement, because that is the one that is going to be implemented.

Q: Ambassador, do You think Mr Downer who will make visit next week to Jakarta, will meet , Mr Alatas ?
A: Of course he is the guest of Mr Alatas.

Q: But how about the President?
A: I don't know the details of the preparations but usually v the Foreign Minister is received by the President and I believe my colleagues in Jakarta preparing that.

Q: In terms of trade there has been a report that there is a problem of the rice crop in Indonesia.
A: Rice crop?

Q: Yes. and in terms of Urea Fertiliser.
A: Yeah, yeah. Well, you see the using of fertiliser is also becoming a problem. 1 think there has been some research and it was becoming a problem. But Indonesia has been enjoying the self suffiently rice production since 1980-s.

Q: Do you think there is a negative about the KIPP?
A: Well I heard about it and I read it. Minister of Interior said that it is all right some other say something else but it is there and it is not not prohibited.

Q: But the East Java - West Java the current government saying that there wouldn't be any help from them.
A: Well, I think we still have to wait. This is the first time we are going to have that. And the pronouncement of the central Java government officials. To me,, I think it's quite open. There might be some other statement, but I think in the end we have to see that. I don't think it is completely finalised.

Q: But you re quite positive about it.
A: Well, my duty is to be here, to be Ambassador to Australia and whatever happen in Indonesia, I think, will be handled by our off7cials in Indonesia. But what I have read there is some support and there is of course some opposition to it. That is only normal Indonesia of 180 million.

Q: In opposition Mr Downer said that a Coalition Government will reassess the practice of fully form military training in Australia. Do you concern at all that there would be a reduction within defence cooperation within the two countries?
A: The way I see it, I haven't read everything, but we are quite happy. As far as the cooperation is concerned it is intensified. Of course I think we have signed the security agreement we share our securitv agreement. So I am not at all of any negative.

Q: (not clear)
A: Of course the security agreement I think shows that we consider our shared responsibility to help maintain regional security and stability. I would like to be aware of any negative in that respect.

Q: If I can put you to what I said later on that MrDawner's view on human rights in Indonesia, in East Timor, is a prowess one egregious abuses of human rights in East Timor.
A: It is a problem for Australia and it is a problem for Indonesia. we are going to discuss it in a positive and open manner.
I think what is important is that Indonesia acts in accordance with the law o)f the sea. And with regard to the three lanes, 1 think you cannot have just unregulated situation I mean you can't enter and exit at any points., because it is internal water of lndonesia. And what we trying to propose is a sensible one. You see, after all not only the interest of those who use the passage also our interest. We need to know where you enter and where you exit and how long are you going to be in our internal waters. 1 think it is normal if come to your house I tell you come in here and then get out there You don't hover around. I think we are tiring to be sensible but of course we are also talking I mean but we need to have prior notification for where you are getting in but we will be acting according to the international law of the sea which is been adopted and enforced.

Q: The Australian government is concerned that there might be the breach of the law of the sea convention it might caused to some of Australian shippings with the find of the three lanes.
A: I don't know whether you have made such a calculation because you know such lanes also have been used you see. ny aggravate problems as it is because we are following the law of the sea and we are trying to be reasonable and I think the international community will have to also act according to this reasonable way of thinking.

Q: What is perception in Indonesia of Australia?
A: Well, if we look back into history when we were questioning whether we should be choosing let's say the Soviet Union or even the Soviet Union at that time, to represent us to the three United Nations Commissions, we found ourselves today, well I think it is the best choice and I think we have chosen Australia to represent us although Australia was still following the white only policy at that time. and 1 think that shows that we don't distrust Australia and it is our independence we are fighting for and we trust it to you. And we are grateful to Mr Chitchley and we think we are a bit late to decorate him with the appreciation of his role so we think -You are geographically here, you are socio culturally from a different of root. You are anglo saxon but economically politically and security wise you are here nation. We realised that and that is why we signed the security agreement. So for us you naturally part of Asia in that sense but culturally you are of course from different root. and that is why we need to be to also close the gap, the cultural gap by having a cross cultural and dialogue and not simply saying -aye are western I don't think that would be constructive.

Q: In conjunction with the organisation membership like ASEAN,...
A: Well. ASEAN of course has its own definition of South Asia. It is not geography but it is political when we say ten nations. When Sri Lanka some years ago, requested to be admitted to ASEAN, we say it is difficult because you re not in South East Asia. When the PNG requested also to be member of ASEAN, well we say you are in South Pacific. But we admit PNG to be permanent observer. and that way we accommodating a bit but the definition of the South East Asia in ASE,4N is the ten countries. that is why now we are seven, after Vietnam, there will he Cambodia, and there will be Myanmar and Laos. After that we are complete. 1 think that is the situation.

Q: Media
A: I think the media is an important player in the relation countries among nations. Well, in the past it has been a source of problems but now 1 think and in the future there will continue to some event. But as I said in terms of the relations between the countries the media too has to be able to report cross culturally and that way you are contributing to the very understanding between the two nations rather than making it is more difficult. Because if I make a report only my Foreign Minister or my superior in Jakarta would read if but if you write an article thousands or millions of people will read it. So you are playing a role and I hope there is a positive one.

Q: What is the difference between ijzfor7nation diplomacy you implemented in Paris than constructive diplomacy you are going to implement here?
A: Well, in Paris I found that a lot of people, French people, do not know. They know of course India, China. and Japan but when it comes to Indonesia they kind of lent. So my activities were primarily try to inform. During the 50th anniversary of Indonesia I co-published with the prominent magazine there, and I lectured, I went to all over the place Strasbourg, Danced, Marseillaise and all that. Trying to be attached with the universities and so on. information to be given. . Here I think we have a slightly different situations in the sense that we have been through a lot of misunderstanding in the past and that is why my role is to be constructive and conducting constructive diplomacy you know there are still a lot of misunderstanding or misperception about us misleading report about us and there are some truth in what you are reporting. A shortcoming in Indonesia I want to discuss it openly. We are not a perfect country I know we advertise Bali as a paradise but Indonesia is not a paradise. we have 25 million people under the poverty life, we have 2 million people graduating from high schools and we don't have enough place. and that is why are sending students here and so on. You see. It is imperfect situation but eventhough it is ample I don't think we like to be addressed condescendingly. As long as you address it in a respectful to respect mutual benefit and shared responsibility I think it's all right. I mean I am willing to discuss. and I think this morning I proved it to you.

Kabidpen: I think it's time for coffee.

Yeah OK, let's have Coffee. Thank you.